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But you see, I believe in His 'omnibenevolence', and I believe in free will. If we didn't have free will, then He wouldn't be 'omnibenevolent', and we would be no more than robots. And the promise of eternal life would be meaningless. Why make the promise if we are unable to do what is necessary to try to achieve it, if we wish to, that is?

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Well what Im saying, just for clarification, is that if creates us with intention in his position of limitless knowledge he originally gave us the ability choice of evil, even created satan knowing he would become evil. He is not omnibenevolent because he is the CREATOR that is omniscient, if he knew the path that he started would result in evil why did he make it indeed? His nature that is claimed does not make sense in terms of the world we all live in, he cannot be omnibenevolent because of what he has made. He is also not omnibenevolent because yes he made the path for some people who cannot go to heaven but are destined for hell. So i dont believe he is omnibenevolent anyway, its almost a different topic though to free will.
I think you need to explain to me why if we didnt have free will then he wouldnt be omnibenevolent.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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If we don't have free will and He has set the path for everyone, that would mean that intentionally, as you say, many of us are destined to be locked out of Heaven (my interpretation of hell). That would mean He isn't a benevolent God. Perhaps we are arguing about two different Gods, the one that you imagine and the One that I believe in. Truthfully, the one you describe I couldn't believe in any more than you can.

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Yes FA that is what I am saying about his omnibenevolence, that is my reasoning to why God I feel can never live up to what people have claimed him to be. I feel people have placed him too highly and in the process forgot about what it actually means that they are applying and what problems it may cause. Perhaps we are arguing about different Gods, i agree that i have no right to tell you what your God is because i honestly dont know. We will ultimately agree to disagree i think, since maybe we are arguing about our perception of God.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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that is my reasoning to why God I feel can never live up to what people have claimed him to be

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that is my reasoning to why God I feel can never live up to what people have claimed him to be

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For me, it doesn't matter what I claim, He has no obligation to live up to anything. What He does do and doesn't do isn't up to me. He is God, the Father and I am simply His child. I try to do what I believe He wants me to, not always successfully. But the beauty of MY God is, He will forgive. Which is another attribute that would be unnecessary if I didn't have free will.

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Well God from my understanding doesnt work like that :)

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

If you have a freedom to choose your particular faith or belief structure, why would you not be bound to the consequences of your actions afterward?  And since when did the memo be sent out that in order to believe in an Omniscient-Omnipotent entity, they must relinquish their individual freedom to choose their particular faith or belief beforehand?


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God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say.
Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful:
he makes saints out of sinners.

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Maybe that's why you can't believe in Him. What 'father' doesn't want the best for his children? What 'father' isn't willing to forgive mistakes?

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I cant on the evidence given and the claims made

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 1:15 pm on May 9, 2008

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Maybe that's why you can't believe in Him. What 'father' doesn't want the best for his children? What 'father' isn't willing to forgive mistakes?

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I cant on the evidence given and the claims made

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Quote: from loumac91 at 3:46 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 1:15 pm on May 9, 2008

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Maybe that's why you can't believe in Him. What 'father' doesn't want the best for his children? What 'father' isn't willing to forgive mistakes?

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 I cant on the evidence given and the claims made

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Who's evidence and who's claims?

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Christianities, their Bible, their omni(everything) God, but any God that is all the omnis doesnt make sense to me

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:04 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from loumac91 at 3:46 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 1:15 pm on May 9, 2008

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Maybe that's why you can't believe in Him. What 'father' doesn't want the best for his children? What 'father' isn't willing to forgive mistakes?

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  I cant on the evidence given and the claims made

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Who's evidence and who's claims?

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Christianities, their Bible, their omni(everything) God, but any God that is all the omnis doesnt make sense to me

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Quote: from loumac91 at 4:06 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 2:04 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from loumac91 at 3:46 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 1:15 pm on May 9, 2008

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Maybe that's why you can't believe in Him. What 'father' doesn't want the best for his children? What 'father' isn't willing to forgive mistakes?

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  I cant on the evidence given and the claims made

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Who's evidence and who's claims?

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 Christianities, their Bible, their omni(everything) God, but any God that is all the omnis doesnt make sense to me

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What kind of "god" would make sense? If he's not able to do anything, what good is he? What your suggesting is you just can't believe there is any god of any kind. A god that you could believe in wouldn't be a "god" and you can't accept an all powerful god.

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Correct he is no good, it is a meaningless concept that is plagued with fallacies(which some except and others dont). A God I would believe in would be realistically fathomable and not so highly placed that he infact doesnt make sense, surely a powerfull being but something that can do anything is contradictory and limited through what is told. He cant stop himself from existing, he cant interfere with 'free will'(if there is such a thing), he cant create something which he cannot do, he cannot not be everywhere, he cannot not know something( even though people believe he doesnt know what choices they will make) there are more. It just doesnt add up to me, and my beliefs dont need a God and I believe i am an animal with the same meaning as any animal on this earth. What i put in I will get out, and if God does after I die, I dont fear his judgement he should know i am a good atheist(since he made me)

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

There are no limits on My God. What He wants to do, He can do. What He wants to give His children, He gives. This life that He has given us is not the ultimate gift, it's simply the stepping stone to the ultimate gift. Sometimes, I believe, He puts obstacles in our path to see how well we can overcome them.

I doubt that your reasons for disbelief are any better than the reasons I could have for disbelief, but I believe anyway.

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Don't laugh at me, Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings

I'll start by only posting one item that I see has not been understood.

The point about God transcending time and seeing what we do, but not knowing the future:

Ok, first item.
God must transcend time for two reasons.
1. If God created the universe --even if he only started it on its way and then watched idly-- then He existed before the universe.
2.Time is a product of space-time and is therefore meaningless and non-existent where there is no Universe.
3. God must transcend time in that sense, obviously --that is, if we accept that a god created the universe. I am not making the argument that one did, I do not worship the Abrahamic God, I am simply defending the stance that God and Free-will can Co-exist.

Also, if God exists, and is not a construct of the universe --which I'm sure we all agree is not the case-- then he exists outside of the universe, and the first argument works again.

Now that we assume that God transcends time, this gets easier to explain [still hard to understand]

If God transcends time, then there is no past, no present, and no future. Time is meaningless to something that transcends it, but that does not mean that it is non-existent.  

So, since time in continuous and had a definite beginning and now continues to go on --and may come to an end in the future, and we assumed already that God transcends this time-line, Then God must see everything as what it is. He can see you as a baby, and at the same time --sorry to use the word and add confusion-- see you as an 80 year old WITHOUT LOOKING INTO THE FUTURE

You are all thinking that a god who can see what you will do would have to look into the future, I ask you to think about what I am saying good and hard until you understand it fully, THEN, you can either agree or disagree:

We make choices in life.
We can not make a choice and at the same time make a different choice [I mean like choose to drive to the store, and then both drive to the store, and stay home]
So inevitably, when we die, we will have taken ONE and only ONE path.
If someone where to go back through our lives, they could tell us exactly what we did, and when we did it [assuming my life was perfectly documented] without any discrepancies.

So, if God transcends time --that is, existing in the past, present and future all at once-- then, existing in the future as well --well after you've been dead-- It would be easy for a God to see what you have done [and being omniscient, would have documented your life perfectly]

That is a bit oversimplified, but not very off.
Basically, picture that infamous "Evolution" picture, of the ape turning into the human while walking forward. We see the existence of past, present and future all at once, that would be how a being that transcends our time would view us, as past present and future.

So it is true that God knows what we WILL do, but that is only because we WILL do something.
Simply because he knows what we will do does not mean that we have no choice, it means that we have a choice, and we make one, so that no matter what, that decision we made was final and is part of our personal time-line [which, again, would be viewed as a sort of panorama.

I just hope that that point was cleared up, since it didn't seem to click for some of you...

God does not see our future, since our future is part of our time-line. A god that does not follow our progressional time-line would not be "seeing the future" he would be looking at what that picture shows.

think about it this way, if God transcends our time, then  our time-line does not progress, it is stagnant, un-changing, a given.
However, we know that our time-line progresses for us, giving us the opportunity for choice.
So we MUST have a progressing timeline, but that time-line must be a stationary "image" --if you will.

So since we WILL ultimately make only ONE certain path, and that path will be seen by this observer [who does not exist in our NOW, to see the future, but before , after, and during the events].

Post edited at 3:05 pm on May 9, 2008 by norock

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...