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Quote: from Forever Angel at 10:35 am on May 10, 2008

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The omnipotence that I believe my God has, has no restrictions or limits that I can comprehend. The questions you raise are purely from a human standpoint. Does this god you don't believe in have human traits? (read your signature, the first six words are very true)

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Your omnipotence makes no sense

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Quote: from loumac91 at 1:03 pm on May 10, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 10:35 am on May 10, 2008

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The omnipotence that I believe my God has, has no restrictions or limits that I can comprehend. The questions you raise are purely from a human standpoint. Does this god you don't believe in have human traits? (read your signature, the first six words are very true)

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 Your omnipotence makes no sense

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Why? The basic meaning is 'all powerful, no limits'. Why is it that you would label a god with that tag and then proceed to 'qualify' it? My God can, and does, do whatever He so desires. What I believe about Him does not limit Him, it limits me, if anything. You are the one who constantly wants god to have limits.

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I dont want God to have limits, I even would like to believe in God but ive reasoned it to be meaningless and false in the sense that he doesnt live up to his expectations. Omnipotence limits itself through contradiction, im not even really criticising God im saying its a logical fallacy to think something can be omnipotent.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Why? The basic meaning is 'all powerful, no limits'. Why is it that you would label a god with that tag and then proceed to 'qualify' it? My God can, and does, do whatever He so desires. What I believe about Him does not limit Him, it limits me, if anything. You are the one who constantly wants god to have limits.

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If we really want to get down to the nitty gritty, "all powerful," which is what omni-potent means, doesn't have to mean "can do anything," just "can do everything." Jehovah doesn't have to be able to, say, create a rock too big for him to lift, in order to be omnipotent. He just has to be able to do everything that is actually possible.

I don't know where this "my belief doesn't limit God" comes from, since I haven't been following this particular exchange too closely, but an uninformed choice really isn't a free choice. Besides that, if Jehovah doesn't let you choose whether or not to be born he's not giving you the most important choice. He makes you without consulting you, and you are therefore forced to make the "choices" that he knew you would before he made you.

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فُک جحُوى

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I dont want God to have limits, I even would like to believe in God but ive reasoned it to be meaningless and false in the sense that he doesnt live up to his expectations. Omnipotence limits itself through contradiction, im not even really criticising God im saying its a logical fallacy to think something can be omnipotent.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 11:47 am on May 10, 2008

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Why? The basic meaning is 'all powerful, no limits'. Why is it that you would label a god with that tag and then proceed to 'qualify' it? My God can, and does, do whatever He so desires. What I believe about Him does not limit Him, it limits me, if anything. You are the one who constantly wants god to have limits.

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If we really want to get down to the nitty gritty, "all powerful," which is what omni-potent means, doesn't have to mean "can do anything," just "can do everything." Jehovah doesn't have to be able to, say, create a rock too big for him to lift, in order to be omnipotent. He just has to be able to do everything that is actually possible.

I don't know where this "my belief doesn't limit God" comes from, since I haven't been following this particular exchange too closely, but an uninformed choice really isn't a free choice. Besides that, if Jehovah doesn't let you choose whether or not to be born he's not giving you the most important choice. He makes you without consulting you, and you are therefore forced to make the "choices" that he knew you would before he made you.

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Quote: from loumac91 at 1:51 pm on May 10, 2008

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I dont want God to have limits, I even would like to believe in God but ive reasoned it to be meaningless and false in the sense that he doesnt live up to his expectations. Omnipotence limits itself through contradiction, im not even really criticising God im saying its a logical fallacy to think something can be omnipotent.

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"He doesn't live up to His expectations." No. He doesn't match the 'qualified' labels you have attached to Him. And you seem to expect Him to follow human expectations. He is not human, He is God. It's a human fallacy to come up with a word that can only apply to God and then claim He can't be what that word implies.

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He cant live up his expectations because they are a logical fallacy,

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

By "only one path" I mean this:

you walk down the street and see a penny, you may either pick up that penny, or leave it on the ground; you can not do both. You choose to pick it up --it's on heads-- and then put it in your pocket. later on, you see a bum, he asks for change. You realize that all you have is that penny, which you can either give to him, or not. you choose to give him the penny [he needs more luck than you do]. things like this happen all the way until you die, you make choices, and you live a specific life.

At then end, if you were to look back at your life like a perfectly detailed movie, you would see one and ONLY ONE path that YOU followed. that path COULD have been different if you made different choices, but you didn't, you made the choices that you made, and the path that you followed was the one that you followed.

So now, at your death you have one path [one that, again, COULD have been different had you made different choices]. And so does everyone else --no one can go back in their lives and change the choices they've made. At the end, the Entire UNIVERSE will have traveled its specific path --i'm going to say it again so it sinks in: THERE COULD BE AN INFINITE NUMBER OF PATHS BASED ON THE CHOICES WE MAKE, BUT IN THE END WE CAN ONLY MAKE ONE CHOICE AT EACH JUNCTION.

Now, you are seeing god as existing at the beginning, througout, and end of the universes existence. Good.

However, what you are not comprehending is that all of those points are the same to him. There is no beginning, middle, and end of our universe for him, since our time is meaningless.

as i said before, it may take trillions of years for our universe to come to an end, but for god, our universe is just beginning, developing, and ending all at once. you exist as a baby, as an adult, and then you are dead, all at the same instant from god's perspective.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Birth is necessary for life. And since we aren't conscious of pre-birth activity, we can's say for sure we had nothing to say about a birth choice. And since I do believe in free will, I don't believe that I am following a pre-programmed path in my life.

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Christianity doesn't teach that Jehovah gave us a choice whether or not to be born. YOU can believe whatever you want, but the religion you claim to subscribe to attributes certain things to Jehovah. When 1 + 1 = 2, and your religion is supplying the numbers,  what you claim to believe ceases to be relevant.

If Jehovah told me "You can be born, but you'll "choose" to reject salvation and therefore wind up in Hell," I know I wouldn't have agreed to be made. If Jehovah didn't let me know what I was going to choose, then the choice to be born and make my choices would've been uninformed, and not free. If Jehovah didn't give me a choice at all, then  he's forced me to make the choices I was going to make. Since he supposedly always knew what I would choose, the only possible outcome is that free will is bunk and Jehovah sends people to Hell because he wants to.

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فُک جحُوى

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Loumac you are misunderstanding what I've said.

By "only one path" I mean this:

you walk down the street and see a penny, you may either pick up that penny, or leave it on the ground; you can not do both. You choose to pick it up --it's on heads-- and then put it in your pocket. later on, you see a bum, he asks for change. You realize that all you have is that penny, which you can either give to him, or not. you choose to give him the penny [he needs more luck than you do]. things like this happen all the way until you die, you make choices, and you live a specific life.

At then end, if you were to look back at your life like a perfectly detailed movie, you would see one and ONLY ONE path that YOU followed. that path COULD have been different if you made different choices, but you didn't, you made the choices that you made, and the path that you followed was the one that you followed.

So now, at your death you have one path [one that, again, COULD have been different had you made different choices]. And so does everyone else --no one can go back in their lives and change the choices they've made. At the end, the Entire UNIVERSE will have traveled its specific path --i'm going to say it again so it sinks in: THERE COULD BE AN INFINITE NUMBER OF PATHS BASED ON THE CHOICES WE MAKE, BUT IN THE END WE CAN ONLY MAKE ONE CHOICE AT EACH JUNCTION.

Now, you are seeing god as existing at the beginning, througout, and end of the universes existence. Good.

However, what you are not comprehending is that all of those points are the same to him. There is no beginning, middle, and end of our universe for him, since our time is meaningless.

as i said before, it may take trillions of years for our universe to come to an end, but for god, our universe is just beginning, developing, and ending all at once. you exist as a baby, as an adult, and then you are dead, all at the same instant from god's perspective.

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One fallacy that completely undermines all of that which i have been trying to avoid is that God is eternal and free im arguing against is in mortal life. There is no end or beginning for God as he is eternal, and the same applies after you die and go to heaven/hell because you live forever. The path only applies for when you are on earth, not when you are a spirit soul in heaven/hell.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

It really is hard to get your head around. keep re-reading what I am saying. [I am sure that it makes sense, this argument of mine created a full section of course material on free-will at Rensselaer Polytechnic --with the help of one of my professors pushing the idea, even though he is an atheist]

I'm not speaking about the spiritual world, what i am saying is that while on the earth, alive, you make certain decisions that will ultimately lead to only one path being followed. that path is not determined until AFTER you make it.

God doesn't need to see what choices you make or "will" make. God exists outside of time, and can therefore simple look at the year 3000 and see what happened. it is merely there to view, even though it is still 3000 years away.

NOW. he is not viewing year 3000 from now, year 2008. He is viewing year 3000 from his point of view, which sees the entire time-line of the universe.

as i said before, since he exists outside of our time-line, he needn't wait for it to finish.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 12:15 pm on May 10, 2008

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Birth is necessary for life. And since we aren't conscious of pre-birth activity, we can's say for sure we had nothing to say about a birth choice. And since I do believe in free will, I don't believe that I am following a pre-programmed path in my life.

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Christianity doesn't teach that Jehovah gave us a choice whether or not to be born. YOU can believe whatever you want, but the religion you claim to subscribe to attributes certain things to Jehovah. When 1 + 1 = 2, and your religion is supplying the numbers,  what you claim to believe ceases to be relevant.

If Jehovah told me "You can be born, but you'll "choose" to reject salvation and therefore wind up in Hell," I know I wouldn't have agreed to be made. If Jehovah didn't let me know what I was going to choose, then the choice to be born and make my choices would've been uninformed, and not free. If Jehovah didn't give me a choice at all, then  he's forced me to make the choices I was going to make. Since he supposedly always knew what I would choose, the only possible outcome is that free will is bunk and Jehovah sends people to Hell because he wants to.

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You apparently don't subscribe to free will. I do. None of that paragraph is close to describing anything I believe in.

Post edited at 1:19 pm on May 10, 2008 by Forever Angel

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Don't laugh at me, Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings

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yea, you are still not comprehending what i am saying.  

It really is hard to get your head around. keep re-reading what I am saying. [I am sure that it makes sense, this argument of mine created a full section of course material on free-will at Rensselaer Polytechnic --with the help of one of my professors pushing the idea, even though he is an atheist]

I'm not speaking about the spiritual world, what i am saying is that while on the earth, alive, you make certain decisions that will ultimately lead to only one path being followed. that path is not determined until AFTER you make it.

God doesn't need to see what choices you make or "will" make. God exists outside of time, and can therefore simple look at the year 3000 and see what happened. it is merely there to view, even though it is still 3000 years away.

NOW. he is not viewing year 3000 from now, year 2008. He is viewing year 3000 from his point of view, which sees the entire time-line of the universe.

as i said before, since he exists outside of our time-line, he needn't wait for it to finish.

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If God exists out of time you cannot apply a time line, that would suggest that there has been time before now and after now. He either exists in time or not at all, he can still be in the future and past(omnipresence) but its a fallacy to say he is out of time. He is eternal meaning that he is time, eternity is meaningless without time otherwise there is no time in which you will exist forever in.
Lack of time duration is instantaneous. was there ever a time when there was nothing besides god? Well within the question you would be assuming time existed along with god. In this case, time would be a fundamental property of existence

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Quote: from norock at 1:12 pm on May 10, 2008

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yea, you are still not comprehending what i am saying.  

 It really is hard to get your head around. keep re-reading what I am saying. [I am sure that it makes sense, this argument of mine created a full section of course material on free-will at Rensselaer Polytechnic --with the help of one of my professors pushing the idea, even though he is an atheist]  

 I'm not speaking about the spiritual world, what i am saying is that while on the earth, alive, you make certain decisions that will ultimately lead to only one path being followed. that path is not determined until AFTER you make it.  

 God doesn't need to see what choices you make or "will" make. God exists outside of time, and can therefore simple look at the year 3000 and see what happened. it is merely there to view, even though it is still 3000 years away.  

 NOW. he is not viewing year 3000 from now, year 2008. He is viewing year 3000 from his point of view, which sees the entire time-line of the universe.  

 as i said before, since he exists outside of our time-line, he needn't wait for it to finish.

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If God exists out of time you cannot apply a time line, that would suggest that there has been time before now and after now. He either exists in time or not at all, he can still be in the future and past(omnipresence) but its a fallacy to say he is out of time. He is eternal meaning that he is time, eternity is meaningless without time otherwise there is no time in which you will exist forever in.  
Lack of time duration is instantaneous. was there ever a time when there was nothing besides god? Well within the question you would be assuming time existed along with god. In this case, time would be a fundamental property of existence

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Quote: from loumac91 at 3:19 pm on May 10, 2008

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Quote: from norock at 1:12 pm on May 10, 2008

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yea, you are still not comprehending what i am saying.  

  It really is hard to get your head around. keep re-reading what I am saying. [I am sure that it makes sense, this argument of mine created a full section of course material on free-will at Rensselaer Polytechnic --with the help of one of my professors pushing the idea, even though he is an atheist]

  I'm not speaking about the spiritual world, what i am saying is that while on the earth, alive, you make certain decisions that will ultimately lead to only one path being followed. that path is not determined until AFTER you make it.

  God doesn't need to see what choices you make or "will" make. God exists outside of time, and can therefore simple look at the year 3000 and see what happened. it is merely there to view, even though it is still 3000 years away.

  NOW. he is not viewing year 3000 from now, year 2008. He is viewing year 3000 from his point of view, which sees the entire time-line of the universe.

  as i said before, since he exists outside of our time-line, he needn't wait for it to finish.

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 If God exists out of time you cannot apply a time line, that would suggest that there has been time before now and after now. He either exists in time or not at all, he can still be in the future and past(omnipresence) but its a fallacy to say he is out of time. He is eternal meaning that he is time, eternity is meaningless without time otherwise there is no time in which you will exist forever in.
 Lack of time duration is instantaneous. was there ever a time when there was nothing besides god? Well within the question you would be assuming time existed along with god. In this case, time would be a fundamental property of existence

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You are still applying 'human' logic and limits to God. "He either exists in time or not at all..." Why?

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Time is a fundamental property of existence, and if you dont want to accept that then God was/is stuck still without any progression or anywhere to come from in order to move or do anything

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei