Whatever future there may be is not a vision of the future for God.  It's much like me reading that history book or yesterday's newpaper or watching the evening news. To Him it's a history of future past. Whether it's 5 minutes from now or 50 years makes no difference, it's not a linear timeline. The problem is human conditioning to time. It's next to impossible to understand time as a dimension that can be something other than steadily and constantly advancing from the past to present and on into the future. But time can fluctuate and even stand still. And if God is outside of time, time means nothing at all.

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Don't laugh at me, Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings

Post edited at 7:05 pm on May 8, 2008 by PewPew

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

And I wonder what is the difference, in reality, between the 'illusion' of free will and the actuality? If one cannot tell the difference, does it matter? If I believe I have free will and you can't show me that I don't, then, for all intents and purposes, I do.

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Don't laugh at me, Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings

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My opinion on what norock said is that not all of it makes sense or takes into account what it is like to actually be omniscient omni... etc. He has said that he views us as a timeline yet, by his nature, he cannot not see everything we will do. If you dont accept this I feel you are being rigid and ignorant.
To keep telling people that we dont understand and not even be able to explain how you feel shows to me that you are reluctant to properly honestly discuss the topic.

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1) God looks at us not as a time-line, but as a given.
He sees the path that in our future, we will have taken.

This is not an easy concept to grasp, it may seem to many of you as though the two ideas are identical, but I assure you they are not.

On the one hand we have God seeing into the future, telling us what we will do inevitably.
On the other we have God existing outside of our time-line, looking at it like a mosaic.

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Do you understand the concept of God existing in 'all time' and seeing what we do 'in the future' as we do it? Not seeing what we will do, but are doing, even though it's our 'future'?

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With an omniscient created any other verb is inferior to what he knows. He doesnt need to see anything first of all, anything in time he will be there anyway by definition of omnipresent, and anything that will happen if there is such a thing as 'is' to him since he is time and eternal he will know everything and anything that will, did and is happening.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:45 am on May 9, 2008

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Do you understand the concept of God existing in 'all time' and seeing what we do 'in the future' as we do it? Not seeing what we will do, but are doing, even though it's our 'future'?

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With an omniscient created any other verb is inferior to what he knows. He doesnt need to see anything first of all, anything in time he will be there anyway by definition of omnipresent, and anything that will happen if there is such a thing as 'is' to him since he is time and eternal he will know everything and anything that will, did and is happening.

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Quote: from loumac91 at 12:19 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:45 am on May 9, 2008

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Do you understand the concept of God existing in 'all time' and seeing what we do 'in the future' as we do it? Not seeing what we will do, but are doing, even though it's our 'future'?

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 With an omniscient created any other verb is inferior to what he knows. He doesnt need to see anything first of all, anything in time he will be there anyway by definition of omnipresent, and anything that will happen if there is such a thing as 'is' to him since he is time and eternal he will know everything and anything that will, did and is happening.

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So how does that interfere with free will?

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Because he will, did and has created you

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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But creating is not the same as controlling.

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He controls your existence, your ability and reason and anything that is possible. He is omniscient, knows and knew what you did and do, from the beginning and from the end. He cant not of created you and cant not know what you do, since there is as norock said only one path, in the mortal life, then that path was pathed by him. So what Im saying aswell is that even if you 'tried' to proove your free will and tried to do anything and be as wierd and retarded as possible, in the choices you make, that would be what your meant to do. The path is made by him, and he is standing at the beginning and the end at the same time knowing how you walked because he is at the end and made you walk because he was at the beginning.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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Simply because He is 'there' does not mean He is 'controlling' every decision/choice/action. He is 'there' for every living entity. Why would He, if He wants us all to love Him, allow so many of us to disbelieve in Him? Why does He allow us to do things He has expressly forbidden? If we don't have free will, why is there such a huge variation in the the way we all act?

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I dont think you have fully interpreted what I said as I have wanted it to be heard as I have meant it to mean. But originally main point is that free will capacity is god made, humans are god made, god knows everything that they will choose when he made them because the path cannot be changed in the mortal life because he is at the end. And at the beginning he made the path, which may I remind you he is at the end of (imagery intended if it helps), he made you yourself and the path every choice is on the path you cannot stray from, in effect he has given you the life which you have to live. So everything that effects you is the path which is the will of God you walk it, because you have no choice not to. Free will is impossible since you have no choice not because god is controlling every descision but because he made it so that you could not do what he has willed you to do. This is why I have problems with his 'omnibenevolence' as you said below.
'Why would He, if He wants us all to love Him, allow so many of us to disbelieve in Him?' EXACTLY!
'Why does He allow us to do things He has expressly forbidden?' EXACTLY!

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei