I see what you are saying norock but the definitions and powers people have given God cant apply with what you are saying. I dont agree with everything you have proposed

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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powers people have given God

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God is time the dimension that he will eternally be in, otherwise there would not be a dimension which he would exist.
He doesnt look into the future(he is the future and eternal), he is omnipresent(as in he could be talking to someone dead and the same person alive in different times but still be present) and omniscient he is there and aware of what is, and he cannot not be by the definitions

I see what you are saying norock but the definitions and powers people have given God cant apply with what you are saying. I dont agree with everything you have proposed

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what powers go against what I have proposed? omnipresence strengthens my argument, since by existing everywhere in whatever time-line god follows, he is therefor also omnipresent at ALL points in OUR time-line [which is unchanging in whatever "dimension" you wish to assign this god].

Omniscience is what I have described.
I would say that knowing all things as a single idea is far closer to the definition of omniscience than "seeing the future" --which would be considered clairvoyance.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Your response to norock shows no real understanding of a lack of linear time.  

And I wonder what is the difference, in reality, between the 'illusion' of free will and the actuality? If one cannot tell the difference, does it matter? If I believe I have free will and you can't show me that I don't, then, for all intents and purposes, I do.

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One can not tell the difference in terms of day to day life, but can logically find a difference. You might have to expand on linear time, are you arguing that we don't have linear time or that God doesn't, and how does this show some fallacy in the argument I am trying to present?

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:40 pm on May 8, 2008

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Your response to norock shows no real understanding of a lack of linear time.  

 And I wonder what is the difference, in reality, between the 'illusion' of free will and the actuality? If one cannot tell the difference, does it matter? If I believe I have free will and you can't show me that I don't, then, for all intents and purposes, I do.

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One can not tell the difference in terms of day to day life, but can logically find a difference. You might have to expand on linear time, are you arguing that we don't have linear time or that God doesn't, and how does this show some fallacy in the argument I am trying to present?

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The idea is that since God does not exist in our time, he is not seeing the future.

the idea that god can see the future is what contradicts free will, throw that out and you've really got nothing to go against free will at all.

which is what I have done.
Since god transcends time, he does not exist in our time-line, or in our "present". Therefore, knowing what we WILL do, isn't really that, it is knowing what we have done, in the future. it sounds silly, but it makes sense logically.

If god sees all time as one instant, then he also exists in our future, and it is easy to see what we have done when we are in the future.

then the only argument is whether THAT contradicts free will, and it doesn't.
since we WILL make a choice, it is understood that in our future, we WILL have done something.
What I am saying is that we choose to do something at time X in the future, and it is done --we don't know about this yet, but SOMETHING will come about and we will have to do SOMETHING at that time X.

see god would exist BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER, our time-line, so there really is no FUTURE seeing, only looking strictly at it.

I am arguing that God looks at our existence Before we came about, while we exist, and thenceforth afterwards until the end of time.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Quote: from PewPew at 6:33 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:40 pm on May 8, 2008

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Your response to norock shows no real understanding of a lack of linear time.    

  And I wonder what is the difference, in reality, between the 'illusion' of free will and the actuality? If one cannot tell the difference, does it matter? If I believe I have free will and you can't show me that I don't, then, for all intents and purposes, I do.

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 One can not tell the difference in terms of day to day life, but can logically find a difference. You might have to expand on linear time, are you arguing that we don't have linear time or that God doesn't, and how does this show some fallacy in the argument I am trying to present?

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The idea is that since God does not exist in our time, he is not seeing the future.

the idea that god can see the future is what contradicts free will, throw that out and you've really got nothing to go against free will at all.

which is what I have done.
Since god transcends time, he does not exist in our time-line, or in our "present". Therefore, knowing what we WILL do, isn't really that, it is knowing what we have done, in the future. it sounds silly, but it makes sense logically.

If god sees all time as one instant, then he also exists in our future, and it is easy to see what we have done when we are in the future.

then the only argument is whether THAT contradicts free will, and it doesn't.
since we WILL make a choice, it is understood that in our future, we WILL have done something.  
What I am saying is that we choose to do something at time X in the future, and it is done --we don't know about this yet, but SOMETHING will come about and we will have to do SOMETHING at that time X.

see god would exist BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER, our time-line, so there really is no FUTURE seeing, only looking strictly at it.  

I am arguing that God looks at our existence Before we came about, while we exist, and thenceforth afterwards until the end of time.

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God does not exist in our time, but he can look into our time and see the future in relation to our current position in the time line. What I argue is that there can't exist a future until we create said future, or else the future is predetermined. In this sense, God cannot see the future because it would not be there until we create it, or if he does then there is no free will.

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

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Quote: from norock at 3:41 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from PewPew at 6:33 pm on May 9, 2008

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 7:40 pm on May 8, 2008

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Your response to norock shows no real understanding of a lack of linear time.    

   And I wonder what is the difference, in reality, between the 'illusion' of free will and the actuality? If one cannot tell the difference, does it matter? If I believe I have free will and you can't show me that I don't, then, for all intents and purposes, I do.

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  One can not tell the difference in terms of day to day life, but can logically find a difference. You might have to expand on linear time, are you arguing that we don't have linear time or that God doesn't, and how does this show some fallacy in the argument I am trying to present?

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 The idea is that since God does not exist in our time, he is not seeing the future.  

 the idea that god can see the future is what contradicts free will, throw that out and you've really got nothing to go against free will at all.  

 which is what I have done.  
 Since god transcends time, he does not exist in our time-line, or in our "present". Therefore, knowing what we WILL do, isn't really that, it is knowing what we have done, in the future. it sounds silly, but it makes sense logically.  

 If god sees all time as one instant, then he also exists in our future, and it is easy to see what we have done when we are in the future.  

 then the only argument is whether THAT contradicts free will, and it doesn't.  
 since we WILL make a choice, it is understood that in our future, we WILL have done something.  
 What I am saying is that we choose to do something at time X in the future, and it is done --we don't know about this yet, but SOMETHING will come about and we will have to do SOMETHING at that time X.  

 see god would exist BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER, our time-line, so there really is no FUTURE seeing, only looking strictly at it.  

 I am arguing that God looks at our existence Before we came about, while we exist, and thenceforth afterwards until the end of time.

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God does not exist in our time, but he can look into our time and see the future in relation to our current position in the time line. What I argue is that there can't exist a future until we create said future, or else the future is predetermined. In this sense, God cannot see the future because it would not be there until we create it, or if he does then there is no free will.

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That is completely wrong, at least the first part is...
Sorry to sound condescending, but it's true.

you said, "Go does not exist in our time, but he can look into our time and see the future in relation to our current position in the time line."

Does that make any sense to you?
Think about it:
1. God is omniscient [can see everything, everywhere, everywhen
2. God does not exist in our time, but transcends it.

why then would god need to look at our time-line from our respective point of view and look into the future?

Omniscient means that one sees the entire picture of the universe, through all time, in the same instant.
If this being sees the entire picture at once.

God needn't wait and see what we will do, he knows because from his perspective, its already been done.

You see, WE exist in our time-line, God does not. So in the time it takes for our entire universe to be created, and either continue infinitely, or crunch, or whatever, God has not had to wait one instant, it is merely a picture of our universe. All events, of all time, at once.

With such a picture [that is only begot because of the transcendence of time] WHY would a god look "into the future" from our point of view? That just doesn't make sense at all.

Like I said, in the end we WILL HAVE TRAVELED ONE AND ONLY ONE PATH. so knowing everything we do is easy, since from HIS perspective, its already been done [and simultaneously, it has yet to be done, and is being done at the moment]

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

The diagram offered to illustrate this often looks like this:

 God  God  God  God God God
God <--------us---------> God God  
God God God God God God God

In acknowledging Gods transcendence you also acknowledge the existence of an arleady determined time line in which we are at a certain place. This would mean the time line was arleady determined, thus we do not actually have the free will to shape this time line. If free will did exist the diagram would be more like this:

God God God God God God God
God US??????... God God  
God God God God God God God

God would not be able to know what will unfold in 'our' future, as the time line would not be known until it is dynamically created and it will extend infinitely.

Post edited at 6:55 pm on May 9, 2008 by PewPew

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

THERE IS NO FUTURE outside of time. there is only ONE image of reality.

We can make our choices
We do make those choices
In the end we follow only one path [made up of all the choices]
that path is un-alterable.

god does not look into the future to see what we will do, as i said, that does not make sense.

OMNISCIENCE!
the term is not the same as clairvoyance.
clairvoyants can see into the future, an omniscient being needn't do that because and omniscient being sees all things, all places, all times, at once.

but there is a difference between an omniscient being that is bound by our progressive time-line, and one that is not.

an omniscient being that is bound by our time-line would have to see into the future in order to maintain its omniscience.
Since we have already agreed that God transcends time, then we can agree that this first case is not the case with God.

We are then left with the god that is not bound by our time, and therefore exists before, after, and during our existence.

...ok let me try to explain this in a simpler manner.

1. You agree that god transcends our time.
do you understand the implications of this assumption, fully? this means that god does not see our existence as prehistoric->modern->future type of progression, but a simple totality.

A mural of existence that is un-alterable and definite.

you have to get this "future" idea out of your head, the future does not exist where our time does not exist.

THE ONLY POINT that you can make right now is that since God exists in our relative future [as well as in our past and present] that his knowings contradict our free will.

and to that I will again say
You are apparently not understanding what it is you are discussing

YOU ARE DISCUSSING THE TRANSCENDENCE OF TIME.

1. we make free choices
2. we continue to make free choices
3. when we die, our life was a series of free choices [call it X,Y,Z]

god needn't look into the future and see what you will do, he need only look at what you have done in the future.

think of it like this.
you have to wait until you die to finish living your life. to you, that is a long time. TIME.
for god, there is no time, so there was no wait, you lived and died, all at once --from his perspective.

I really don't know how to explain this any further, you just simply don't seem to be able to grasp the concept... sorry.

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

Post edited at 8:53 pm on May 9, 2008 by PewPew

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

you say its semantics, i say you are wrong.

you are arguing that by seeing "our future" god is destroying free will.

I'm fine with that argument, it has been used many times by very intellectual people, however, i do not believe that that argument is VALID.

What I am arguing is that it is not our future that God sees. it is simply what happens.

Say in two weeks you are confronted with a choice to either eat a hamburger or a hot dog. you choose hamburger.

your argument is that if god is real, you had no choice but to pick the hamburger, because god saw that and so you MUST have had to do it.

Mine is that you simply picked the hamburger because you wanted the hamburger more than the hot dog. God did not know that you would pick the hamburger two weeks prior to its picking. god knew it after it was done [but, since he exists outside of time, he also knew it before you picked it].

its not a question of what you WILL pick. its not even really a question at all.
you pick something, that becomes part of your time-line.
God sees the time-line as a whole.
therefore god saw that you picked the burger not BEFORE you did, but before, during, and after.

do you understand? God doesn't travel through time with us seeing the future.

Try to imagine this idea:
Right now we are in the year 2008, but at some point it will be 3008, and 4008, and at some point there might even be the end of the universe, a "Big Crunch" if you will. time is progressing day by day, year by year. BUT NOT FOR GOD. All of the centuries of time happen simultaneously in the eyes of god.

So for us, it would seem like god would have to wait 90 years till we die to see all that we have done, or else see the future and destroy free will, when in reality, god didn't have to wait ANY time, since he transcends it.
To god we lived and died at that exact same moment.

So, to god, its not a matter of looking into the future, but simply SEEING what happened.
Do you understand now?

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            ...life is good...
...mai ho oni i ka wai lana malie...

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Ok, so you've kinda got the idea, now lets develop that.

you say its semantics, i say you are wrong.

you are arguing that by seeing "our future" god is destroying free will.

I'm fine with that argument, it has been used many times by very intellectual people, however, i do not believe that that argument is VALID.

What I am arguing is that it is not our future that God sees. it is simply what happens.

Say in two weeks you are confronted with a choice to either eat a hamburger or a hot dog. you choose hamburger.

your argument is that if god is real, you had no choice but to pick the hamburger, because god saw that and so you MUST have had to do it.

Mine is that you simply picked the hamburger because you wanted the hamburger more than the hot dog. God did not know that you would pick the hamburger two weeks prior to its picking. god knew it after it was done [but, since he exists outside of time, he also knew it before you picked it].

its not a question of what you WILL pick. its not even really a question at all.  
you pick something, that becomes part of your time-line.  
God sees the time-line as a whole.
therefore god saw that you picked the burger not BEFORE you did, but before, during, and after.

do you understand? God doesn't travel through time with us seeing the future.  

Try to imagine this idea:
Right now we are in the year 2008, but at some point it will be 3008, and 4008, and at some point there might even be the end of the universe, a "Big Crunch" if you will. time is progressing day by day, year by year. BUT NOT FOR GOD. All of the centuries of time happen simultaneously in the eyes of god.  

So for us, it would seem like god would have to wait 90 years till we die to see all that we have done, or else see the future and destroy free will, when in reality, god didn't have to wait ANY time, since he transcends it.
To god we lived and died at that exact same moment.

So, to god, its not a matter of looking into the future, but simply SEEING what happened.  
Do you understand now?

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' you are arguing that by seeing "our future" god is destroying free will. '

Fundamentally, no, im saying that making only one path , as you said, that we can only go down he has destroyed free will. Because at the beginning he made the path we cannot not follow, every single decision is gods will and what god has made us do. He doesnt control us on the way, he has programmed it so that we can only go one way, what we feel we are choosing is only what god has intended we do evil and good.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

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' you are arguing that by seeing "our future" god is destroying free will. '

Fundamentally, no, im saying that making only one path, as you said, that we can only go down he has destroyed free will. Because at the beginning he made the path we cannot not follow, every single decision is gods will and what god has made us do. He doesnt control us on the way, he has programmed it so that we can only go one way, what we feel we are choosing is only what god has intended we do evil and good.

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Quote: from loumac91 at 4:56 am on May 10, 2008

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' you are arguing that by seeing "our future" god is destroying free will. '  

 Fundamentally, no, im saying that making only one path, as you said, that we can only go down he has destroyed free will. Because at the beginning he made the path we cannot not follow, every single decision is gods will and what god has made us do. He doesnt control us on the way, he has programmed it so that we can only go one way, what we feel we are choosing is only what god has intended we do evil and good.

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So you believe that if there is a god, we are simply robots? That's not MY God. And that's not what norock said.

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No if there is any God that is omni(everything) then we have no free will if he created us.

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I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei