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Quote: from norock at 1:20 pm on May 8, 2008

... I've done this about a million times here...
Let us first assume [for the sake of this proof] that Outside of God, there is free will. That is, if god suddenly went away --if he ever was there to begin with-- we would still have free will.
The point you are trying to make is that God neutralizes and even goes against free will, am I correct?
So, not regarding God yet:
1) In our lives, we make choices [whether we are free too or determined is irrelevant, the choices are made; also, I said let us assume choices are free]
2) A series of choices over time will yield a specific out come
[A leads to B leads to C leads to D... so on and so forth so that at the end of our time, we are left with a final path of A->B->C->D->... to an ultimate end]
3) This path, once followed, cannot be altered. Of course, once one is dead, barring any supernatural phenomena, one cannot go back through their lives and change things around. We will start at A and end at the point we end at, with all other points preceding.
So, that means that from the start of time, through on 'till the end of time, [if there are such things] there will have been 1, and ONLY 1 path that the entire universe followed. All the things that could have happened, did. [out of probability, out of causality, or out of choice].
It is essential that one understands the above point before moving on
The nature of the events of the universe, and the limitations of Time, show that all paths are POSSIBLE, but only ONE will ultimately have been followed.
Now we continue:
Your proof that God and free-will cannot coexist necessitates the idea that since God is omniscient, that God sees the future, and therefore no choice is truly free. [since it WILL happen].
However, that idea rests solely on the premise that God sees into the future. Yes, if God were to look into the future and see the coming events, surely no choice could be free.
That is exactly why your argument fails, then.
God does not exist in the present, God is believed to "Transcend time" and thus does not follow in our limited four dimensionality.
If God does transcend time, then [Using the same "evidence" that you are in assuming that he is omniscient], there are two distinct possibilities for God and free-will to coexist.
1) God looks at us not as a time-line, but as a given.
He sees the path that in our future, we will have taken.
This is not an easy concept to grasp, it may seem to many of you as though the two ideas are identical, but I assure you they are not.
On the one hand we have God seeing into the future, telling us what we will do inevitably.
On the other we have God existing outside of our time-line, looking at it like a mosaic.
It is inevitable that we WILL make certain decisions; at some point we will have made all that we can, and we will die. This is true for the whole world. Because of this, we can say that God is merely "watching what we do" but not in a chronological sense.
It is inevitable that we will, indeed, make decisions that will lead to an ultimate, single, "path-followed". This Path will be seen, by God, not as a flowing time-line, but as the past, as the present, and as the future. There is no time outside of time [of course, there may be something similar, but time as we experience it would be irrelevant].
So we see that God does not predict the events that will occur, he sees what we have done when we are finished --as though looking into the past-- at all times.
If I try to break it down any further, it will lose meaning, and become even more absurd, so I'm sorry for those who do not see the difference.
2) If that idea didn't sink in, then perhaps this will.
It is obvious that in every instant, there are infinite possibilities that can occur: atomically, chemically, biologically, socially, even astronomically.
Therefore, we know that there is an infinite amount of paths that the universe can follow. If God is omniscient, and can see all outcomes of all paths, then he essentially can see the future. [even though i dictated before that God needn't see the future, because he transcends time]
I would like to note that I am not a Christian, I am a Pantheist.
[For those wondering, pantheism is not really a religion, but a life philosophy, there is no deity [in an Abrahamic or idolic sense. There is no real worship, but an uncommon understanding of the nature of everything, and a great sense of respect for the same]

Ok, yes I am saying that if there is a God, he/she neutralizes and goes against free will, as I have stated. Not sure whether you read the second part of my thread which is what you havent objected to.
Also alot of what you said would make alot of practicing a religion and praying meaningless, since all we need to do or are required is to 'choose' the right descision ultimately whether we belive him or not. If he doesnt watch us in a chronological sense, then he is not with us all the time and therefore not omnipresent, or he is not concerned with any actions in between meaning that aslong as you make the end change to be 'good' and believe you have ultimately done the right thing regardless of the inbetween.
Also, 'The nature of the events of the universe, and the limitations of Time, show that all paths are POSSIBLE, but only ONE will ultimately have been followed'. Is certainly untrue with an omnipotent creator, sinnce there is no end to the eternal and that he 'transcends time'. This seems to be contradictory to what you have stated.
'Therefore, we know that there is an infinite amount of paths that the universe can follow. If God is omniscient, and can see all outcomes of all paths, then he essentially can see the future. [even though i dictated before that God needn't see the future, because he transcends time]'. Unfortunately the ability of omniscience is unable to be logistically applied since we cannot comprehend what such a talent would be like to have. I mean that If I know everything that how can I not not see into the future or not be aware of it. I would already know that I could not know what I know and that it was in my head. God will have no power over his access of his powers since he cannot not be omnipotent, or have the power to not be omnipotent its self contradictory.
'It is inevitable that we will, indeed, make decisions that will lead to an ultimate, single, "path-followed". This Path will be seen, by God, not as a flowing time-line, but as the past, as the present, and as the future. There is no time outside of time [of course, there may be something similar, but time as we experience it would be irrelevant].
So we see that God does not predict the events that will occur, he sees what we have done when we are finished --as though looking into the past-- at all times.' There is a major flaw in what you said here, the word predict does not and cannot apply to an omniscient creator, he doesnt predict he knows.
'1) God looks at us not as a time-line, but as a given.
He sees the path that in our future, we will have taken' And at the same time cannot not know what will happen inbetween.
In addition 'That is exactly why your argument fails, then.
God does not exist in the present, God is believed to "Transcend time" and thus does not follow in our limited four dimensionality. ' This contradicts the whole notion of omnipresence, he is everywhere at once knowing everything at once.

What I have said is not in any order and rather jumbled, what I have commented on and criticised is just through looking over after reading your post.

-------
I cannot concieve of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves : Albert Einstei

Quote: from norock at 1:20 pm on May 8, 2008

... I've done this about a million times here...
Let us first assume [for the sake of this proof] that Outside of God, there is free will. That is, if god suddenly went away --if he ever was there to begin with-- we would still have free will.
The point you are trying to make is that God neutralizes and even goes against free will, am I correct?
So, not regarding God yet:
1) In our lives, we make choices [whether we are free too or determined is irrelevant, the choices are made; also, I said let us assume choices are free]
2) A series of choices over time will yield a specific out come
[A leads to B leads to C leads to D... so on and so forth so that at the end of our time, we are left with a final path of A->B->C->D->... to an ultimate end]
3) This path, once followed, cannot be altered. Of course, once one is dead, barring any supernatural phenomena, one cannot go back through their lives and change things around. We will start at A and end at the point we end at, with all other points preceding.
So, that means that from the start of time, through on 'till the end of time, [if there are such things] there will have been 1, and ONLY 1 path that the entire universe followed. All the things that could have happened, did. [out of probability, out of causality, or out of choice].
It is essential that one understands the above point before moving on
The nature of the events of the universe, and the limitations of Time, show that all paths are POSSIBLE, but only ONE will ultimately have been followed.
Now we continue:
Your proof that God and free-will cannot coexist necessitates the idea that since God is omniscient, that God sees the future, and therefore no choice is truly free. [since it WILL happen].
However, that idea rests solely on the premise that God sees into the future. Yes, if God were to look into the future and see the coming events, surely no choice could be free.
That is exactly why your argument fails, then.
God does not exist in the present, God is believed to "Transcend time" and thus does not follow in our limited four dimensionality.
If God does transcend time, then [Using the same "evidence" that you are in assuming that he is omniscient], there are two distinct possibilities for God and free-will to coexist.
1) God looks at us not as a time-line, but as a given.
He sees the path that in our future, we will have taken.
This is not an easy concept to grasp, it may seem to many of you as though the two ideas are identical, but I assure you they are not.
On the one hand we have God seeing into the future, telling us what we will do inevitably.
On the other we have God existing outside of our time-line, looking at it like a mosaic.
It is inevitable that we WILL make certain decisions; at some point we will have made all that we can, and we will die. This is true for the whole world. Because of this, we can say that God is merely "watching what we do" but not in a chronological sense.
It is inevitable that we will, indeed, make decisions that will lead to an ultimate, single, "path-followed". This Path will be seen, by God, not as a flowing time-line, but as the past, as the present, and as the future. There is no time outside of time [of course, there may be something similar, but time as we experience it would be irrelevant].
So we see that God does not predict the events that will occur, he sees what we have done when we are finished --as though looking into the past-- at all times.
If I try to break it down any further, it will lose meaning, and become even more absurd, so I'm sorry for those who do not see the difference.
2) If that idea didn't sink in, then perhaps this will.
It is obvious that in every instant, there are infinite possibilities that can occur: atomically, chemically, biologically, socially, even astronomically.
Therefore, we know that there is an infinite amount of paths that the universe can follow. If God is omniscient, and can see all outcomes of all paths, then he essentially can see the future. [even though i dictated before that God needn't see the future, because he transcends time]
I would like to note that I am not a Christian, I am a Pantheist.
[For those wondering, pantheism is not really a religion, but a life philosophy, there is no deity [in an Abrahamic or idolic sense. There is no real worship, but an uncommon understanding of the nature of everything, and a great sense of respect for the same]

An existence of a deity in itself does not go against free will, it is when the deity necessitates our timeline to be finite or predetermined. It is not predetermined from our perspective, which would clearly be limited if we exist in the timeline itself. But it is predetermined when when viewed from a perspective of anything outside that timeline. It would provide an illusion of free will and a dynamically determinable future from our perspective, but in reality it would be finite, predetermined, and free will would not exist.

If God transcends our time and from his 'perspective' the chronological events on the timeline can be determined then it shows we are on a predetermined path even if it may not appear so to us. So by postulating a time transcendent being that can view our time outside of the chronological order we see it in you must presuppose there exists a chronological order from start to finish that isn't dynamically created by us. In short, free will is refuted by the postulation that our time can be transcended, as that contradicts a dynamically created timeline.

As for God being able to see all the paths that can be taken, that does not reconcile the contradiction for the following two reasons. First, we would still be on a predetermined timeline, even if it is only one predetermined timeline out of infinite timelines. Two, God would would have to know which of those infinite timelines we take, thus proposing infinite timelines but simply bringing back the problem of having to reconcile our predetermined timeline that will be known from his perspective as the 'true' timeline and free will.

Post edited at 2:22 pm on May 8, 2008 by PewPew

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All men are born with a nose and ten fingers, but no
one was born with a knowledge of God. -Voltaire

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